AUTO12

I don't know how it happened. I love normal music like everyone else. I adore the Beatles like any other healthy, well-adjusted person does. I never lost my love for a well crafted pop song with a good beat, but somewhere along the way, I found myself attracted to stranger and stranger things. I was compelled by forces unknown to me to seek out something I'd never heard before. Eventually I found myself listening to things like Skinny Puppy, where massively layered, convulsing noise chunks accompanied a mutated, distorted form of the basic verse-chorus-verse type of song writing. Then I started listening to ambient things, like, well, Brian Eno for starters, and later some of the 2nd and 3rd generation ambient artists like Vidna Obmana, which dispensed with the conventional song trappings altogether for rather approachable, flowing atmospheres which emphasize texture over melody, which appealed to the intellect, rather than attempting to shake the booty. Somewhere along the way I found myself listening to what most people would call senseless noise. Me, I object to this assessment, as would anyone who's heard the music of PBK.

While there does exist a copious measure of noisal effluvium floating like lardy scum atop the greasy stew that is the cassette underground, to label the music of PBK "senseless" would be profoundly unreasonable given the high amount of structure apparent in his inherently chaotic sound constructions, (think of the high structure in chaotic logorithms, such as the famous Mandelbrot Set). Even to label his work as "noise" would be unfair, as "noise" suggests a nuisance or a background event. The music of PBK does no good unless it is delved into, paid attention to, thought about; it is hardly background music, and neither is it nuisance, for even though he uses harsh, distorted elements in his music, the effect is wholly becalming. His highly advanced sound environments bring to conscious light a jittering, primordial dream world, crackling with electric ooze, a spectrum of subconscious sounds of another reality in which we rejuvenate ourselves while dreaming, but that we've forgotten by morning. His is hidden music, the music that plays unseen, unheard behind everyday life. I've found in PBK the apex of underground recording, the closest thing to genius that I've uncovered in this vast network of creative minds we play in. Basically, the guy shits gold bullion.

Part One, Abstract Music and the Eternal Failings of Genres and Labeling

What do you call this type of music you do? Are you comfortable with the term "Abstract Music," given the fact that the hip hop / trip hop genres seem to have adopted the term? To me, hip hop's about as abstract as a Lichtenstein.
I've used that word in reference to my work, but to me all art seems to be abstract in a sense; even if an artist paints in a representational style, they're still only approximating what their eye sees, and then using pigment to translate, with patterns, those images. What I like about music is that it doesn't allude to representationalism in the way visual arts do. With music it is possible to create structures that are imitative of actual environments, and that, to me, would be its "representational" side. Where the possibility exists for creating "gestures" of expressionistic content, or unique sound-worlds that have no precedent, these possibilities represent music's abstract potential. So, like you, I don't feel that trip hop, or hip hop are really very good examples of abstraction in music, even though they are distilling elements of popular culture, and therefore could probably be considered abstract.

When people think of the "Noise" genre, they tend to think of the power noise legion, exemplified by Merzbow and others. Even your harshest sounding recordings are far different from this kind of work, but could still be considered "Noise." What's the difference?
Well, that's certainly an indication of just how narrowly the genre is defined by its title. "Noise" is apt, but doesn't say enough about the possibilities in this area of composition. My musical precedents, from Sun Ra, to Xenakis to John Cage, would not be characterized as "noise" musicians, yet I understand the use of the word: its post-music connotations. So I began to embrace the idea of noise, and now see it as a kind-of demystification of music, since any person can make noise, see? In this world, all barriers to freedom of expression are broken down, there is a propensity towards the use of sounds, all types of sounds, to create a statement that has real impact. That's one thing I hear, a commonality between many of the noise artists I'm aware of, the need to make a powerful statement. Noise is conducive to that, I think. But, getting back to your question... Some noise artists use the limitations of electronic components, by overloading the circuits, pushing up the volumes to distortion levels, and so on. That's one way to go about it; I respect it. I choose another path, myself. I'm very concerned with dynamics and thrust in my work. I want to hear a sense of evolution in the piece, interesting collusions of sound that send the piece off in new directions. Each sound must be delineated carefully. I use the more harsh noises in my work as punctuations to the sonic text.

I find your work calming, even the early, harsher stuff, like "Die Brucke." Describe the link between what you do and the more meditative ambient genre.
It's true, my work does somehow belong to both the ambient and noise genres. Years ago, Glenn Thrasher of Lowlife Magazine referred to my music as "assault ambience". But I don't really dig ambient music, personally, if you're speaking of the kind of music characterized by, say, Vidna Obmana, Robert Rich or Steve Roach, etc. The linking up of electronic music with pastoral imagery is hypocritical, I think. I associate electricity with chaos. Electricity has connotations of space, skies, clouds and thunderstorms, flares around the sun, birth and collapse of stars, and fire, energy, dynamics... Electronics takes the idea further into the domain of the human brain as man creates new technologies for harnessing electricity... now it is computers and microchips, digital video and audio, etc. If you were to listen to my collaborations back in 1989 with Vidna Obmana, you'd hear how my concept of ambience clashes with his, yet creates some very compelling space music in the process. His more recent music, with its reliance on ethnomusical themes is hardly recognizable as the same composer. I've never been afraid to bring out the textural elements of my work, the longer continuities, and that is where the ambient aspects are more obvious. But I also want the active listener to be engaged by all of the elaborate sub-structures that are working in the composition as well.

What is the allure of abstract music? What kind of person listens to PBK?
The allure...? It's a total discovery process! By placing incongruous elements together in unpredictable ways, I have been able to create sonic "events" that seem to suspend notions of time and space, rhythmic intervals, all of the preconcepts of how music is supposed to work. For me, this creates a state of what Anthony Braxton calls "sound wonder". Who listens to it? Mostly other musicians, and that makes sense to me: their ears are usually more well-versed in the vocabulary of sound. But any person with an open mind and a desire to hear something new could find interest in my music.

I see this kind of music as kind of a mind-alterer in and of itself. I've had deep, proto-hallucinatory experiences by letting myself "fall into" the sound. This is probably the same thing referred to as "deep listening" by Pauline Oliveros. I am fascinated by the fact that something so much a part of our everyday lives as sound could have the power to transform perception. You've suggested the use of mind-expanding drugs for use alongside the experience of the music... your thoughts on drugs and how they could add to or detract from this effect?
I often feel like an observer of events that I, myself, put into motion. I think unique opportunities do exist for those willing to explore firsthand the use of natural and chemical psychotomimetics. I'm not saying that I have ever had a single life-transforming event through their use, but it is obvious and undeniable that my life and work have been changed in the most lucid of manners since I began using them. I feel more certain about music's "magical" properties all the time, but I'm not trying to mystify the process. This channel is open to each individual. I think in my case I was feeling as though I had unlocked some doors, and knew there might possibly be others to unlock, if only I could find the key. When I began to use psychedelics (in my mid 30's), I recognized right away the potential for creative use, and even though the results would sometimes lapse into incoherence and chaos, the heights achieved were, for me, worth stumbling for. But, I can't possibly lead another person down the same path I've taken, it's not for everyone. I can barely even articulate my experiences for you now, but if you listen to my "Mescaline Tracks" album, you'll hear some of the sounds I came up with throughout that time when I was tripping quite heavily.

What role does this type of music play in the musical world in a broader sense?
Perhaps it is only of esoteric interest? That's possible. I suppose I'm hoping to restructure musical processes to enhance the "free" aspects of the composition. What is important to me is how the music affects those few individuals who do listen to it deeply, those who try to hear it in a true sense. The rest of the musical world is not that important to me. I see the future of music moving away from the strict timekeeping, I see it metamorphosizing into an expression of personal liberation. I say this at a time when rhythm has become the main element of most music... I'm tired of hearing the same rhythms, that's why I keep going back to jazz drummers like Tony Williams, Rashied Ali or Elvin Jones. Their concepts are free, dynamic and very personal. As you can see by my answer, I'm really lost in this question...

Does abstract music have a future? Will it be remembered?
As the global community continues to grow, subcultures will get larger and larger. I was talking to Ernest Carter about this the other day. There isn't a huge audience for my kind of music, but that audience does seem to be growing and albums as a whole; popular albums, rap albums, etc., are selling in unprecedented numbers. As the consumer cultures grow with the burgeoning population of our world, it seems that each subculture also grows. Industrial music, ambient music, free jazz, noise, indigenous musics from around the globe, hybrids created through cross-culturization, all of these genres will expand their listenership. Look what happened to lounge music. Ten years ago, you could find tons of 50's and 60's lounge in any average used record shop. They couldn't get rid of the stuff! Try finding an Esquivel on vinyl anymore... impossible where I live. So every style of music that has been ignored or pushed aside by the pop-indoctrinated masses will be due for rediscovery by independent minded people of the near future. In fact, I daresay the next big discovery will be the underground tape cultures of the last 15 years. A tremendous treasure chest exists there, but we'll go into that later...

Part Two, the Music of PBK

How has your move toward more "musical" (i.e. rhythm, melody) expression in particular on the Headmix release been greeted?
Living so close to Detroit, there really is a larger audience here for electronic music. Everybody I meet, it seems, wants to be a DJ or music producer, so I've found many open ears, people I respect that give me valuable feedback. Over the years I've worked from time to time within an overtly rhythmic context, but most of that material was never released. When I played this music for my friends, some of it dating back almost ten years, they were very excited. This was in 1996, and at that time I was hearing a whole lot of electronic music; industrial, techno, drum 'n' bass, etc., all formalized by very regular, rhythmic patterns. The duo project with my cousin, Artemis K. was kind of a response to that; I wanted him to do the rhythms and I would throw in the textures and chance events, weird sounds... We did a few things together as Acclimate, but I never could get behind his rhythm programs, they seemed stiff and teutonic, marchy... I wanted to hear organic, moving rhythms, "cracked" rhythms, alien, morphed-out patterns, and Artemis just wasn't moving in that direction. The Headmix release is an example of what I was hearing in my head at the time, and I think it stands out in a rather unique way against the electronica movement. Though it hasn't been heard by more than a handful of people, response to it has been great.

To me, all your pieces actually seem to have a rhythmic center, even the chaotic sounding ones. Somewhere in there there's a subrhythm that's everything is orbiting around.
I like rhythms that move very freely, that punctuate the composition in powerful and interesting ways. I'm very influenced by such free-jazz drummers as Sunny Murray, Andrew Cyrille and Don Moye... incredible textures, lines and colors! With my work, the use of loops does provide intervallic thrust, which is probably what you are referring to as a possible "rhythmic center." Even when the piece is more droney, it will still have a regularity of lines expanding out and then returning to their start point again. I've used turntables before to achieve rhythmic context in a piece. Skipping, looping small portions of a record and processing those sounds.

When recording, how far ahead of time do you know what you're going to be doing? Are you a planner or an improvisor?
Each time I prepare to work on a composition, I have a vague idea of how I want to methodically approach the piece. I don't know what particular sounds I'll be using. I try to gather together all of these disparate sound strands and mix them in the most spontaneous way in a single session. I don't actually do much overdubbing, I just set up the parameters of the composition and go into it. I suppose it would be a type of improv... There is a portion of time it takes to set up the patches on each individual sound module, but once I have all of the parts ready, I can mix them in any variety of ways. Often, I will do two separate mixes and then choose the better of the two for release.

How do you know when you're finished?
An intuitive process. I try to put myself in the "observer" role, listening to the piece for its own qualities. Does it have dynamism to it? Does it seem to resolve itself? Are the relationships between the sonic elements interesting... illuminating?

What's in the PBK arsenal?
I use a combination of analog and digital gear. I've almost always bought my gear used, and at this point a number of my favorite machines are in broken-down condition. My main instruments are the big Korg sampler, my old DX-series Yamaha synth and the analog Korg MS-20. The MS really is my baby... I use it very extensively, and have since 1989, for filtering sounds. I've always laughed at the analog vs. digital debate. I love them all.

What are you working on now?
I've got this album planned, have been working on it for some time now, a mix/remix project with other artists from around the globe using my source material to create new compositions. Most of it is finished now, and I have mixes from Brume, Govt. Alpha, Asmus Tietchens, Brandon LaBelle, several others as well. This project was intended for Michael Gira's label, so perhaps it will appear there. My collaborations over the last two years have been numerous: Athan Maroulis (vocalist from Spahn Ranch on a project we call Alchemia... one track released on The Unquiet Grave on Cleopatra); John Wiggins (head of the music department at HBO... free electronic structures, many voices moving and interacting, nothing released yet); Artemiy Artemiev (Russian TV/Film composer... long, dramatic tracks that are punctuated throughout by musique concrete... Dreams in Moving Space CD release due out on a Russian label, Electroshock Records); Artificial Memory Trace (Slavek Kwi from Belgium... PBK meets the Belgian master of musique concrete in these chaotic patchworks of fragmented experience... CD to be released on a European label); Gov't Alpha (Japanese noise composer, Yasut-shi Yoshida... potent noise, power electronics approach... one track released on S. Isabella Pleroma CD, Xerxes label); Kei Kunihiro (brilliant spoken word poet from Japan... combination of spoken word, electronics and kung-fu/blaxploitation snips... "Melt and Fuse" a work in progress). I hope I'm not forgetting anyone. I've been trying to work with, well, yourself for one, but also Augur, and Big City Orchestra. One thing I'm really excited about right now is this metal band I'm working with called IAD. They've been together already for a couple of years, and one night I saw them live, they floored me! I asked to work with them and they brought me into the project, so now I've been incorporating this noise / improv approach in between and over the top of this powerful heavy metal. And the cool thing is how well it works, really must be heard to be believed! The closest correlation would be Neurosis / Tribes of Neurot by with a more dubbed out, crazy feel. One other thing I'll be doing next year will be re-mastering and making available a number of my earlier releases on CD. I'm just trying to get them all over to digital format as soon as possible.

Ever think "I collaborate too much... I oughta work on my own stuff more."?
No, I've always enjoyed working with other musicians and I find the process to be very stimulating. I regret that I sometimes bite off more than I can chew in terms of realistically being able to accomplish my goals within a certain time frame. I tell you this, if I lived in the same town with my good friend Zan Hoffman, I would want to work with him in the same room together collaborating and improvising. Any of my colleagues: Jeph Jerman, AMK, etc. But we are separated geologically, and therefore must work together via networking. If you look back through my catalog of releases, I think my solo work is well represented. I do have a couple of CD's that include guest artists, and Life Sense Revoked in particular was supposed to be an "all-star" noise project in a sense.

How do you think your music has changed over the years?
I think it has become a good deal more listenable, at least for me. There is a division in my earlier work at about the time of the Macrophage recording, due to my extensive work with turntable manipulation processes. I began using sequencers to create lines that would be similar to what I was able to achieve on the turntable with a piece of vinyl. My current work is still informed by these processes, but I think at this point, I am able to draw from my entire range and background of diversity and create something directly from my subconscious. And to that degree, I feel like I've mastered my tools. All that remains now is for new methods to be invented.

I've heard you talking about "Lines Converging" as describing your music. What's that all about?
The idea of sound-structure as drawing, or painting, has been crucial to me in terms of developing a philosophy and vocabulary for my work. When I began looking for correlations, it seemed very natural to apply concepts of figure / ground relationships, color theory, line and texture, etc. I'm also thinking in terms of mixing: a "line" comes from one of your sound modules and plugs into your mixer, you combine that line with others by raising or lowering the volume, and as the lines converge they form interesting relationships, sometimes chaotic events occur, other times harmonious connections are found.

Part Three: The Life and Philosophy of the "Real" PBK

I read an interview with you from ten years ago where you said that you "dread working on music... ...because of the constant failure." I dread working on my "normal" music because there's a predetermined expectation of what a good vocal sounds like, what a good guitar sounds like, I find myself pulling my hair out trying to make all these things sound good, and work together, and hope that I have a good song too. What stress! On the other hand I find working with abstract sounds to be a joy, quite relaxing and fulfilling to put together, there are no preconceptions as to what it should sound like...so long as it sounds good to me.
Well, I feel the opposite. Working with song forms, I have a map, an idea for how the structure operates. I think pop songs must be really easy to construct. With an abstract approach, there is no blueprint to follow, thus how can I judge its merit? I don't feel quite so diminished by my "failures" today as I did then. I listen to my work a bit differently now. Every mix is unique, and each structure has its distinctive points. But the perceived failures still plague me and it takes great determination sometimes for me to begin working on a piece.

I'm interested in the intersection between the 'real world' wherein you're Philip Klinger, normal guy, and the 'alternate reality' wherein you're PBK, and you make music to which the majority of people from the 'real world' would say "that's not music!" I tend not to tell the people I'm around everyday about my musical endeavors. For one thing I think it's pretty arrogant to go around saying "Oh, I'm a MUSICIAN." But then I also think that maybe they wouldn't understand, which itself is kind of arrogant, but for me I suppose it's fear of ridicule.
I think the most successful musicians are ones who do a great deal of self-promotion. Is the workplace and that alternate reality of social structures the place to do that? Perhaps... maybe not. I work with a very diverse group of people now, in a bookstore, and because they are open-minded, I share my musical endeavors with them. Other people I come in contact with day-to-day don't have any idea that I even play music.

You seem to be becoming fairly well known within a certain population of the underground. What is your concept of success?
Well, years ago I was told by a few people that I'd never have an album out on vinyl or CD. For some people in the cassette network, it was a very heavy subject. Just having a "legitimate" release out, even that seemed impossible working in this genre of music. I, myself, never had any doubts about the path I wished to pursue, and it didn't much matter to me if my work was put out by another independent label, or at home by myself. The work is what matters.

I've heard you mention before a commitment to 'no-profits' as a means of avoiding compromise.
I used to think that if I took a 'no-profits' approach to marketing my work, that would be an honorable path. What I did not realize is that there are no profits to be had! These small record labels that typically release my kind of sound work are usually on the brink of financial disaster themselves! Collecting royalties has always been difficult, I usually ask for as many copies of the finished product as I can get in order to sell them myself through my mail order. It takes money to operate even the smallest music studio. Shit is constantly breaking down, there are costs. I would be happy if my music could support itself, if I could, once in a while, go out and buy a new piece of gear with money earned from my music. In the meanwhile... I keep myself hungry, try not to get too ambitious about my employment situation and stay open to opportunities and risks. Since I was very young, I've always had my eggs in the art basket. Now that I've established my place in this community, however small it may be, I consider my reputation to be its own reward. But of course, it would be nice to eke out a bit of a living from it.

You're pretty opinionated about the cassette underground network...
I've always been interested in the subversive aspects of the cassette underground, how it operates outside of convention and scrutiny. Some years ago, there was a debate over the idea of referring to ourselves, the cassette networkers, as modern, electronic "folk" artists. I rejected that notion based on the idea that the term "folk" was already pre-approved by the establishment as a reference to outsider art of all kinds. With such freedom, why hold ourselves bound to a term that is already accepted by the mainstream and poses no threat to it? We never did develop a very good singular cause for unity between ourselves, we argued a great deal. But the issues we argued over; commercialism and compromise, the value or lack of value to criticism and reviews, racism and sexism in music, etc., these were all significant, and the underground press was our forum for some very passionate responses. Even though there never seemed to be the kind of closeness or solidarity between us as there should have been, there was no denying the brilliant wellspring of artistic creativity bubbling up around us. There is something different for this generation... I mean, my father had a reel-to-reel as early as the 1960's, they were actually commonplace before cassettes came in, and he never thought about using the recorder in progressive, manipulative ways. What you are getting here is a post-modern response to technology, disenfranchisement and the complications of our age as we move into the 21st century. The cassette underground has created an important body of work, diverse as it may be, that is informed by, and draws from a whole 100 years of modern music theory, and also responds to millenial issues in a profound way. Some of the underground is getting better known, but there are many who dropped-out and disappeared. There is a wealth of obscure material out there, ripe for rediscovery. Guys like Carl Howard, Al Margolis, Jon Booth, Chris Phinney, any of those who had big tape labels, they must have hundreds and hundreds of tape-only releases in their collections, one day the musicologists will come knocking.

What do you listen to that no one would guess from listening to your collection? Are you a secret N*Sync devotee? Got the whole Garth Brooks collection?
Aren't we all ridiculously diverse in our listening habits? I mostly have been listening to jazz, free-jazz lately, but it changes all the time... I love finding rare vinyl, collect a bit of it, not for its dollar value as much as its aesthetic value. It's really unbelievable the things I find at the used record shops! (Somebody find me a copy of Sonny Sharrock's Black Woman please!!) My favorite late-night listening is Brazilian music, the rest of the time it's a musical smorgasbord.

Advice for abstract musicians, or for hometapers in general?
Keep at it. Don't get discouraged. There are a whole lot of people out there who use art as an elaborate "ego-feed" and these people will step on you as soon as they are through using you. I shit on them. I've always been real with people, I work with artists whose work I, myself, admire. I try to present my statements with integrity, my search for reality may provide different results than yours, but there is still a commonality between us, a bond. Fuck the "15 minutes" concept! We live, and grow older and die, your work should mean more to you than having some moment of artificial acclaim. Continue to subvert the corporate powers-that-be by producing your music freely and exploring as progressively as possible.

PBKography (selected)

1988
PBK - Die Brucke C-60, unavailable
PBK - Asesino LP, (RRR), unavailable
Hands To / PBK - Verfall C-60, some tracks now on System-Music-End

1989
PBK - A Noise Supreme C-60, unavailable
PBK - Appeal C-60, unavailable
Deaf Lions / PBK - Shamanistic C-46, lost
Hands To / PBK - Melachoir C-60, some tracks now on System-Music-End
Vidna Obmana / PBK - Depression and Ideal C-60, unavailable
Monument of Empty Colours available on Vidna Obmana's 2xCD Memories Compiled (Projekt)

1990
PBK - Thrill Pictures 2xC-60, unavailable
PBK - Narcosis C-60, unavailable
Asmus Tietchens / PBK - Five Manifestoes CD, (Realization)

1991
PBK - Domineer LP, (RRR), Unavailable
PBK - Macrophage / The Toil and the Reap CD, (ND)

1993
PBK - Shadows of Prophecy / In his Throes CD, (ND)

1994/95
PBK - Life-Sense Revoked, CD, (Lunhare)
PBK - Listening to the World Vibrate C-60, unavailable
AMK / PBK - Shifts in Strategy C-46, some tracks now available on System-Music-End
PBK / Hands To / AMK - System-Music-End CD, (RRR)

1996-99
PBK - Headmix C-60, (PBK Rec.)
PBK - The Mescaline Tracks CD, (PBK Rec.)

CD compilations with at least one PBK track:
Objekt 4 1990, (Ladd-Frith)
The Passing Gods 1993, (Playloud)
As Yet Untitled 1991, (Realization)
The Carnival Within 1998, with Jarboe, (Cleopatra)
The Unquiet Grave 1999, with A. Maroulis as Alchemia, (Cleopatra)
Coalescence 1999, (Alien8)
Zann 2000, with A. Maroulis as Alchemia, (Silber)